What is up App Nation, Chad Maretta,the man, the myth, the legend is here. We’re here to talk aboutlike just to catch up. What’s working in the app stores today? So Chad, what’s up man? What’s up brother? Hey, I’m excited to connectand have this conversation. It’s been a long, long time coming. I know, I feel like I’mtalking to a celebrity. The guy who wrote the book on everythingrelated to apps, like so many peoplehave been inspired, have used your methods to build their own app empires. The chat. I kind of want to start off with this manand then you, you talked about it in yourbook back in 2012 about studying the appstores, looking at the one to two star reviews, kind of like improvingupon an already existing successfulapp and making it your own. Has that philosophy, has thatstrategy change today in 2020. Uh, 2020 today. I mean, emulation is stilla huge piece of it, right? I mean, obviously we’re dealingwith some crazy times right now,but like anything in business. And especially when I firststarted, it’s like right now, thatdefinitely is the key is emulating. It’s very different than like fiveyears ago or four years ago, and I waslike skinning and just like copying. And so there is a differentlevel of like business, right? You can’t just copy something andexpect that it’s going to do well. But a lot of things that I,that I taught and I teach. Are basically going back tothe fundamentals of apps. So understanding the marketplace andreally understanding, you know, themonetization model and the demographic. And so, you know, I think like rightnow, we talked about this a littlebit before, but for me, I’ve donebetter now than I ever have an apps. And it’s because I am unwilling towaiver from what I know that worksback when I first started backin 2009 so that’s the good news. That’s crazy, man. To hear it from you is pretty phenomenalbecause I thought it’s getting harder andharder, but to hear you say that you’vebeen more successful these days, what are you kind of focusing on? What do you attribute to that success. Yeah.And, and, and just to address that. So there are things that havedefinitely become harder, right? We know ASO’s tricks, like somestuff that we used to do does not work. So it’s not like I’m justthrowing out an app and I’mlike, okay, I hope that it works. So I just wanted to clear that upbecause things have definitely dried up. But that happens in business, right? So if we’re entrepreneurs and we’reresourceful and we’re seeing up thefield and rescuing the right questions,then we’re meeting it the right way. And so. You know, things have changed. And so what I’m doing is I’mreally focusing on, you know,after the fact, after the download,how do I get engagement going? How do I get more time insidethe app so I could actuallyhave the algorithm work for me? And so it is basic business, but again,in the app store, when we’re firing somuch in the front end, we weren’t reallyworried about the backend as much. So.Well, all the stuff that I do now is,is really like, obviously I want to doconversion up front and get the person inthere, but then I really want to listen to like the data, like what does thedata telling me right now and howdo I increase the time in the app? How do I increase the use? Obviously we know that if somebodyis downloading the app andthey’re spending more time andthey’re playing with it every day. Then that’s going to be in your favor. And so being obsessed with thatpart of the game a little bit morethan the front end part of the game. It’s been something thatI’ve, I’ve really focused on. And there are definitely are still tricksand hacks and things that you can do tomonetize and to also get, you know, your end.ratings and stuff like that on the front But things have changed. And I think the biggest piece is thatit’s a real business and a real business. You know, they understandtheir user, they understand andtheir cost to acquire the user. They understand how long theystay in the app, they understandtheir longterm value, right? Their lifetime value of the actual app. So it’s just getting reallyparticular about those things andletting all sort of, most of thehacks, like go to the waistline. I like it. I like it. Now, what I loved about your book was youtalk about the macro right case study. They app stores to figure out what’sworking, and then you also talk about themicro, like the tactical things that wecan all do in terms of studying the one star and two star reviews.
star and two star reviews. So when you said like, howdo I keep people engaged? So give me, give me the microtips, like how can we keeppeople engaged with our app? Is it just the idea itself or are there. Tricks that you’re usingto keep them engaged? I mean, I think more importantlythat the meta is buildingsomething of value, right? Um, the, some of the tips outside of the building value piece. And you know, for me, I get superobsessed, you know, I’m a productguy and so I get super obsessed withlike looking at all my competitors. What are they doing? Analyzing what’s working,what’s not working. And then, you know, really, when I breakthat down, each app, each silo I like tocall it is really, it’s very specific. So, you know, one app might bedifferent than others, like,you know, coding book app. Well, we want to givethem a lot more options. We want to give them a lot moreproducts inside of that where it’s fun. Maybe there’s a timer that it’s,you know, counting down to give thisurgency and you, you spike the dopamine. I mean, a lot of incredibledevelopers and app preneurs. Are you using dopamine andlooking at the brain chemicaland saying, how can I spike that? How can I get somebody so it’s not thisboring thing, but it keeps it fresh. It keeps it relevant. And so, you know, that is onepiece of, you know, each oneis a little bit different. And then inside of that difference,it’s really just trying new things. And I know that’s probablynot what you want to hear. You want to hear like one magicbullet, but, um, it’s reallytrying a bunch of things. I update my apps typicallyevery five to seven days. And I’ll use certain things likein the beginning, I want to makesure that I get my, my ratings up. And so I typically won’t monetizein the beginning because I wantto front load all my ratings. And these are things that youprobably already do and know of,but just some of the basics is Iwant to do that on a front load. My ratings, I want to get things up there. I want to make sure that, you know,my call to action at the beginning. After they do somethingof value is to rate. And then once I have a certainamount of time and have a certainamount of ratings up there, thenI’ll go ahead and I’ll then monetize. And so, you know, just waitinga little bit and stackingthat up there helps a lot. I get, you know, a lot more,uh, the algorithm favor. Um, and so, you know,that’s, that’s one piece. Obviously there’s a lot of others, like. You know, looking at the time involved. And so there’s certain things thatyou can do to increase the time. Some are tutorials. Uh, some are little games inside ofthe app, which I’ve done in the past. Uh, even with like emoji and stuff likethat where we put a game in front and onthe back end, you know, we had obviouslyan upsell, but what did it do to increase the time? Increased engagement inquiry. Is dopamine levels. And so, you know, you really, atthis point, you have that one shotwhen you get somebody, becausethey’re downloading so many apps. And so you really have to be veryspecifically what you’re tryingand you have to understand it. So it’s not a one size fits all. It’s sort of, is this, this kindof constant machine that you’retesting and seeing what works? And. You know, connecting with otherpeople and seeing what works as well. And that’s why every day I spend typicallyabout half an hour to an hour in the storejust playing with apps to get some of theother data that I’m trying to mind from the store. Oh, I love that man. All right. I’m sure if people are wondering like,all right, how long do you, what doI, I love the front loading idea. How long do I wait untilI say, okay, I’m ready. Let’s push the engines. Let’s make some money off of this. It depends on the app, right? It depends on how manydownloads you get up front.
It depends on how manydownloads you get up front. Like there is. I’m definitely leaning in, like thereis definitely some ASO and focusing on,you know, your icon and the title andgetting that first video is important. But you know, you don’t really no offthe bat unless you have traffic sourcesalready pushing traffic, which you know,I do in some areas where I can leverage existing traffic and push itor you know, obviously runningsearch ads or Facebook ads. So there’s a system therewhere I, you know, I definitelypushed traffic in the beginning. And then from there, dependingon how many ratings I get. So it could be a month,it could be a month. I wait, could be twomonths, could be two weeks. If I’m getting, you know,10 20,000 downloads a day. Then it might stack up quickly andI can see, okay, what I’m doing isworking and I want to leverage thatand I want to monetize it faster. But if I’m not getting that,then I don’t go too early. You know what I mean? Because it is more of a process and Iwant to really make sure that, you know,I’ve got my ratings in place, I havemy monetization in place, but I really understand what’s going on with the user. And if I don’t understand that I don’thave the traffic sources, then I waitand I try to optimize until I do. I love that man. And from an analytic standpoint,what are you kind of payingattention doing that early days? Is it just the lifetime value? Is it the retention, you know,what are some numbers thatyou’re really focused on? Yeah, good question. So it is, it definitely is theretention, and it is lifetime value. Like I have my guesses because I do alot of, you know, apps that are too,too far from data that I already have. So I have so much of a baseline. But, um, yeah, it’s really justlike figuring out what I have. And so, you know, and especially withlike advertising, because sometimesyou get downloads and they’reactually not your customer, right? They’re not the person that you want. And that skews your data. So in the first like 30 days, dependingon how you’re doing it, you’re really justacquiring data to make better decisions. And so I really, for me, I leverage that. I’m just mentally like, okay, I’m init for 30 days to get as much dataas I can, and then I try to optimize. Uh, but typically it’s like, I tryto get them in there as much aspossible, but I really try to givethem as much value as possible. So, you know, say one is a, um, like Isaid, the coloring book app or one is aphoto, a video app, you know, just soldone of those companies for seven figures. Like. That is really critical to how can Igive them value within the first minute? Or they are gonna edit a video. Are they going to see afilter that they like? Are they going to have music and a theme? And so, cause if you waittoo long, you lose them. So it’s typically like how do I as quicklyas possible, give them value where they’rejust like, aha, triggers go open mean. And then at that moment I give themsomething either rating or monetization. Pretty easy, right. But I don’t know. I don’t know what exactly works. I, I model others that workand then I tweak from there. So, um, you know, sometimes also it’slike, you know, people stay in it becausethey’re waiting for their value, right? So if you can get them to, you know,you, it’s like almost like breadcrumbs. If you like leading breadcrumbs andsometimes you break it apart and you getthem to like step closer and then buoyAshok them on there, they have it and they have their value. Dopamine hex, and then youhit him with the trigger. And so, you know, everyone’s alittle bit different, but I lovethe breadcrumb scenario because. You know, you’re stacking valueand you’re breaking it apartand you see this in games. It’s like you make it really easy andlevel one a little bit hard on level two. And so you, you hit thatlike resistance point. And I think this is where a lot ofpeople, they miss it in apps, youknow, like there is a science, yes. But there’s also this art thatyou have to really understandthe users sort of resistant. And I talk about brain chemicals anddopamine and oxytocin and stuff like that. But if you’re not aware. Of where it is.
app strategy Of where it is.
Of where it is. It’s almost like flow, enough resistance,but also enough is so, you know, basicallythey’re in this tunnel vision of theapp until they get to the value point. The value prop, and again, every appis different depending on social, ifthey’re sharing or if they’re engaging. But it’s really important to understandthose basics for you to actually builda platform that you can leverage. I love it, man. Are there specific categoriesthat you’re focused on these days? You talked about the coloring book. You took out about photo and videos. What other categories are on top of mine? Yeah, so I’ve almost always gonefor utilitarian on some aspects. I have, I have, I’ve tried. Games have been successful somewhat,but I feel like games, you reallyhave to be a gamer and understand it. And since that’s not my. My full deal. I’ve been into like, okay, what canI build a, again, it goes back to mybook that’ll be around in 10 years. And so when I look at those categories,the photos, the video, some of themusic stuff, it’s like, what is somebodygoing to download a weather app? Cause I can keep updating that as thingschange, as new technology changes. But I really want to own a segment, owna niche, and I want to know that 10 yearsfrom now, like you know gold, it’s goingto be, it’s going to have some value. And so. Um, I don’t have one particular categorythat I do stick to utilitarian and Ido stick this stuff new year round. So for example, it’s like I have a tornadoand there’s tornadoes going everywhere. It’s like people jump in likethere’s a storm, and so people aredoing these like hurricane trackers. In the beginning, it wasn’t really workingbecause it was such a small market. Now it’s big, so storms and stufflike that are a big market, butI don’t really want to go inand just hit it surface level. I really want to own an area. And I want to do something that, youknow, like I said, five, 10 yearsfrom now, I can look back and say, Ohyeah, there’s still a market for that. I love photo video. I love editing. I love music. Music is a big one forme cause it’s niche. I don’t think a lot ofpeople are looking at that. And some of these simple ones toothat are still around, I thinkare really, really important. You know, some of the PDFs scanners aresecond phone lines and stuff like thatthat, you know, are hard enough to make. But when you make it and you’dhave it, it’s valuable enough whereyou just have to tweak things. Enough, the keywords are your screenshots,your icon, and you know that the marketis big enough for you to do penetration. And for me it’s like I know I’m goodenough with marketing on that side thateventually it might take me a couple oftweaks, but eventually I’ll open up that dam and I’ll just let it come tome and I’ll, and I’ll make sureto, to capitalize on that traffic. And I think that’s my key forsuccess, is really knowing that onceI invest the time and the energyin something, I become obsessed. I eventually will crack the code andI’ll get it and I’ll leverage it. Yeah.I love your obsession. I have a client, a friend of minewho’s done a robot call or an applike kind of like global killer. He’s done pretty well, likefor an indie guy who’s kindof doing it all on the side. He’s doing making pretty goodmoney, and so I’m like, wow, thisa great subscription base too. That’s the key. So that’s what, for me, it’s like a, whensubscription came alive like a few yearsago, it was like, Oh, it was the bestthing that I’ve ever like experienced in my, my business career is nowyou have all these people paying. And then you know, youcan pay for ads, right? You know how to leverage that. And so that’s why right now knowa lot of people are like, areapps still a good investment? Can I still make money? And especially now with everythinggoing on in the world and everybody athome, it’s like, wow, this is the bestopportunity that that could be out there. Honestly, I really believe that. And you know, I own eCommerce businessesand I am challenged with those right now. Inventory challenges. You know, things very complicated inthat physical product, business worldwhere in the digital side of things. Man, it’s on fire. It’s so different. There’s nothing else like the appbusiness, there’s just nothing else. And so when subscription came along, youknow, I’m having recurring passive moneyknowing that I just have to get into alittle bit of a point where I can get the
And so when subscription came along, youknow, I’m having recurring passive moneyknowing that I just have to get into alittle bit of a point where I can get the data and then I can get adsgoing or something else going. That popped off for me, a whole notherlevel of success in this business, andthat’s why I’ve tripled, quadrupled 10 X. My success in the past is because. I can count on that revenue, you know,and buyers are looking to buy thatrevenue because it’s more probable, right? It’s more consistent. Or in the past it was like,eh, this could dry off. And now they’re like, okay, so many ofare paying 50 you know, 50 bucks a year. Some of are paying 10 bucks a month. So when you’re paying five bucks a week,whatever it is, you have these customers. Hang. And you can see the attrition. So from mathematical standpoint, a buyercan look at it and know how much it coststo get a user, know how long are you usersstays, and then they can see how much money they have in the existing userbase and when they’re going to fall off. So they can easily invest in a businesslike this and then acquire new users. And so it gives them a wholenother level of confidence. And that’s what allows you to getanother layer of like another zero ona company that you normally wouldn’t. Be able to do until subscriptions came in. So subscriptions have been complete fire. It’s been amazing. Yeah. I know you probably love systems and soChad, I’m asking you this like from asystems perspective, when you have thisapp idea, you want to front load it, is there a GoTo growth strategy when you’relike, all right, let me just get abunch of users, get those reviews going? Is Facebook still theend all be all for you? That’s your starting pointfrom a growth channel. Um, I would say yes and no. I mean, yes, on some levels, butI do have existing, like I didthis way back and 2010, uh, wow. 10 years ago. That’s insane. Um, yeah. Basically I would take, uh, myexisting Habs and I would just push. Traffic, right? So I could get some of these, thesefreemium apps that weren’t reallymonetizing, but they collect a lot ofdownloads and I could push traffic. And so I still have some of thoseassets that I can push traffic to. Uh, and then, yeah, I leveragedchurch ads and I, and I leveragedFacebook, you know, for sure. Facebook for me, I’m just reallystarting to invest heavily in that. Believe it or not, up until probablylike six months ago, I did zero likeoutside ads, zero, all organic interest. So now I’m just like, I cansee the levels of scaling thatI was sort of leveling off. So it’s a new game for me. But yeah, at a a media buyerthat’s really, really good. And yeah. So, yeah, have really focused on, youknow, making sure that when I launchednow I’ve got kind of a multitude ofapproaches where I had my own traffic. I really feel confident aboutthe assets that have createdfrom a conversion standpoint. I know I’m going to get ratingsand I’m going to make sure Ihit the algorithm a certain way. And then yes, leveragingFacebook and making sure that. You know, you’d give Facebook. All the data is powerful becauseFacebook will then, as youknow, optimize for you there. So Facebook definitely needsto be part of the equation. I think. Um, there’s other traffic sources,but I still like Facebook and I feellike that’s not going to go anywhere. Are you doing anythingon Google play at all? Not really. Not really. I’ve, I’ve done some partnerships withsome people on Google play, but youknow, my thing has always been iOS. And, um, I always look at myreturn on investment in anythingand my time in Google playversus iOS just isn’t worth it. Um, at some point it might be,but I mean, you know, for me,I’ve got my whole VR system. Like I’m, I’m in VR now, so ifyou could always see my, my wardesk right now, it’s pretty wild. But, um, you know, so for me, I lookat VR and I’m like, ah, I’d ratherdo VR then than jumping into Google. Um, because, I love, I cansee where Facebook is goingwith Oculus and everything else. And so that to me is just a bigger pot. And I’m at the beginning stages whereI can leverage the tools and stuffthat I’ve learned in the app business. And that’s a cool thing. And anybody watching this that’s in theapp business and I feel like you are,you know, like, I reached out to yourecently cause I’m like, I love your content. And you stuck with it. And you know, you are one ofthe leaders and it’s really goodto see the depth that you go. And the good thing about all thisinformation that you teach and that youhelp and that you consult with, uh, isthat people can leverage that information and they’ve learned thosetools and they can apply it. To VR and AR because I’malways looking up the fields. And so if I’m looking up the field a fewyears from now, five years from now,like I want to make sure that, you know, Icame in and the apps for 2009 right in the beginning. So I’m also positioningmyself in VR for that as well. And it’s amazing how much easierit is because I already havethe fundamentals down, right? And so that’s, that’s where I chooseto invest my time because it justis going to pay me for a longterm. It’s very inspiring. And you see when we’ve got to talk, I waslike, it’s very inspiring to see, causeI thought I heard a lot of differentprojects that you were working on, so I thought you had move on from was veryinspiring for me to see like this isthe guy who first started at all in myeye and then to see you still doing it. Cause you know, we, we know thepeople that have come, come and go. Like Carter is not really doing much. Trey is still doing stuff, butlike, you know those names that. These were the names that I lookedup to when I first started, andnow to see you still going at itlike it’s very inspiring to me. Heck yeah. Heck yeah. I love it. It’s better now than ever, so. Well, I hope we can continue doing this. Like I don’t know if there’sanything else you want to talk on. The other thing I want to talk aboutis you’ve been very successful sellingbusinesses and so maybe on anotherrecording we could talk more in depth about that, but I don’t know ifthere’s anything else that you wantto talk about for this first session. Yeah, no, I would lovethat to another call. It sounds great and yeah, Ialways build a company to sell it. And we told you before, my eighthmillion dollar company just sold. And I love it. So it’s, it’s amazing to crate the solidoff and there, there’s a whole processand we will definitely go into that. yeah. I’m curious from yourperspective, the way like. You know, what do you seethat a lot of people don’t? So you have this agency, you work with alot of people, you know, you see obviouslyFacebook, you see where the market’s goingand so, and a lot of mines have dried up and so people are like, Oh, what do I do? And you know, I think you weresurprised that I’m doing so well. And I’m curious what your wisdom tells youabout the next few years of like where theapp store is going and what somebody canreally, from an 80 20 standpoint, focused on in order to get success because youhave a unique, I think, perspective thata lot of people don’t because you’rejust in so many different pots of apps. Well, I’ll answer a couple of ways, andI think something that you’ve done reallywell is, and I think I really suck atthis, is when there’s something new, like don’t be afraid to jump in. Don’t be afraid to be the first one,because if it does take off, you’regoing to be the first one and you’regoing to really ride that wave. And if it doesn’t take off, then heck,you know, you can move on to this. And I think when you look at abs, Ithink people try to complicate it. And you’ve done a really goodjob of simplifying it, right? Because I’ve got friends who aremaking like . 80 like these are likemillion dollar businesses with the mostsimplest, the crappiest UIs ever, right? Like you wouldn’t imagine, I’mlike, how are you making $80,000a month with this crappy app? And so it is really about simplifyingit, utilizing what you talked about,the subscription piece of things, andjust having like, here’s this app. The utility aspect of it is there. Here’s an app that I’m going tobe using maybe five, 10 years downthe road, and it’s so simple to usethat it solves one primary problem. I love that. I love that. Yeah.It’s so true. Yeah. That’s so true. Yeah, it makes sense. That cuts through theweeds, so I love that. The lands, that is what I’vebeen doing and like it’s easyto, to complicate things. You know? So it’s like, man, so easy as a creator,as someone that loves creating to likemake an extra screen or make it an extrabutton, or I want to add another benefit when it’s like, eh, they’rebuying it for this one benefit. Just nailed that. You just nailed that. You’re going to get them todownload, they’re going to be happy. And so I see that a lot and I’ve evenseen that in myself where, because I likecreating so much and I want to just now. The value. I overcomplicate it. And typically those are theassets don’t do incredibly well. So I think that’s areally, really good point. And there are people who have gonethrough your course and you seethese apps, and I’m like, no way. Nobody would use this. You’d be surprised athow much they’re making. And I think, you know, the one thing thata lot of people are starting to thinkingabout too, is thinking about apps as atraffic generator and then utilizing it for like affiliateprograms or other things. I have a friend, you know, given thetimes, it’s not so appropriate now, buthe’s at, he has a travel app, he’s gotmillions of downloads, and he uses that to sell. Tours and guides and that’s how he’sbeen able to really like double hisrevenues, his top line revenues. Cause now he’s selling instead of contentwithin the app, he’s selling guides. So there’s that affiliate model that Ithink if we think about apps as a traffic,Jenner and top of the funnel, are thereother ways to monetize outside of the app store too? Yeah. No, I love that. I love that because yeah, conceptuallyit makes sense, but a lot of people, Iheard a lot of stories of people doingthings like that, but there’s so many opportunities out there to, to have a backend or to connect a product or service. And I’m curious if you’ve seen and whatyou’ve seen sort of in the marketplaceof influencer marketing becauseeveryone now is an influencer marketing. Everyone has a list. And so are you seeing people leveragethat in your experience to get. Somebody that has a 50,000following promote an app and a,because you know, I’ve, I haven’treally dived into that fully. And obviously there’s a lot of models outthere that, you know, you can, even, ifyou jump in and do a, a deal with anybodythat has a large following, you can give them a piece of the pie andthey’ll promote it every few weeks. Right.Why not? You know, you saw this alittle bit with emoji on. Kardashians, um, and some ofthe other influencers thatcame out there afterwards. I’m curious if you’veseen any of that of work. Do you think that’s agood strategy for people? Because that is a big traffic sourcethat I feel like people are trying toleverage with other physical products. But you don’t see too many with that. Yeah, I do think so. Like I’ll, I’ll, deer is one way, andI wouldn’t recommend this way justbecause I like the way you think too. Like is this going to be around. 10 years from now, but people createstickers, apps with like smallerinfluencers and they were able to make afew grand, 10 grand, 20 grand just off of one influencer and them showingit, and it was a paid app, right? So it was $2 up front and you getthat, but it’s a one time hit andyou’re going to get that spikeand then slowly trickles down. I think from an influencer marketingperspective, it’s a great growth channeland focusing on the micro influencers,that’s what I’ve read, what we’ve used, and that’s what most people have said. Works really well. So anywhere from, I would say like 10 tomaybe even 50 to a hundred thousand, thatsweet spot, because they’re still not bigenough where they’re going to overprice themselves, but they’re small enoughwhere they’ve got high engagement andthey’re not going to be as expensiveas some of these bigger influencers. So I do think that it isstill a growth channel. And I know kind of like what wetalked about, like people whenit was musically before it was. You know, tick talk. Usually influencers were doing really wellfor gamers, so don’t be afraid to jumpon board when you see a new influencermarketing like, or I’m sorry, a new social media platform pop out and be dirty. Often ones on there, jump on board. You know, that might be now musicallytake talk influencers harder. Right.More expensive. But early on it was agreat channel for gamers. Yeah, no, I love that. I love that. Yeah, I definitely have been. Firing a while ago and tick-tock firstcame out because, you know, it was young. They had no idea what was going on. It was very different prices in Instagram. I’m like, sure, I’llpromote it for 20 bucks. And you know, and it didn’t work. And so, you know, but things change. And so it is this like constant mentalityit seems like, of how can I fire andcontinuing to be resourceful to knowlike, okay, this isn’t returning the same. Dollar amount or benefited now andnow maybe turning a little bit. I think that’s what Isee a lot of people miss. It’s like this is the businessside of things where you, youhave to continue to tweak. You have to continue tolook at your playbook. You can’t just, I mean, you could set itand forget it actually have, and I havepeople that launched apps like six yearsago and are doing like 20 or 30,000 a month, haven’t updated it at all. It likes there and they’relike, what do I do? I’m scared. Updated Apple might take it off the store. And so there are thoseposts, those crazy stories. But if you want to keep it as a realbusiness and maximize the value. You know, you really do have to look at itas this engine that you’re going to haveto maintain and tweak and become betterand better at it because traffic dries up, channels dry up, algorithms changed. Um, so I’m curious on thatalgorithm piece for you, what doyou see changing in the future? You know, Apple, at this point,you’ve done a bunch of features. Seeing sort of, you’vechecked under the hood. Uh, so I’m curious what you, if you seethat as like a, a strong, uh, value propfor people to get eyeballs and trafficand Apple involved and where you see that going for the future. So the, the Apple features itselfare primarily, or just, yeah,Apple features or, yeah, differentpromos and stuff like that. You know, even even third party companies. Yeah. I mean, I think what I’m seeing,especially from the ASO side, is keywordoptimization, while still fundamentallyimportant, hasn’t been a huge driver of growth anymore because thereare little tricks and yeah. Tactics that we used to do whereit was like, boom, I can get youto like number two and on a certainkeyword, high traffic keyword. And I think Apple is startingto catch on to some of thosetricks that we’ve been utilizing. And so it hasn’t been as powerful,still extremely powerful. But I think what you said is so true. Getting that upfront traffic,figuring out what that traffic sourceand treating lit like a business. I think too many times, maybe because ofthe content I’ve shared and some of the .The other content that other people share. We got into much of like thetricks and the tactics and not ata macro level thinking about as abusiness like, Hey, how many users? What’s the LTV? What’s the retention? Instead of just like, Oh, let’s just spama bunch of different keywords and let’sjust re skin a bunch of different appsand let’s just really flood the app stores with these apps, and I think it’snow you have to really think aboutit from a business perspective. Let’s not just make a. Really thinking about that way and thenusing, having a machine like you referencewhere you know where the traffic’s comingfrom, you know how what’s going to happen to these users and how muchmoney you’re gonna generate. Because if you’re looking tosell this business, then that’swhat buyers want to see to aid. You have this predictable machine wherethat just sort of prints revenue, right? Like you’re not going to be relying onASO because that thing’s going to change. 100% you’re going to lose your rankings. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it is this, like I see peoplethat it’s great to answer. So I see people like the artistpiece, and I have that cap. Sometimes I’ll put it on the artistpiece and I’m like, I love creating,and I’ll sit there and I’ll be payingand doing my thing, creating the star. And then when I have to get into thelogical piece where it’s like, okay,there’s certain certain data points I needto look at and certain things that you know, at times that becomes boring. So I’m like, ah, it takes energy away,but you really need both parts and Ithink you need to feed yourself andthen you have to wear the business hat. And put the artist’s hat, you know, on theshelf for a second and really know whatyou have and know that it doesn’t meanyou’re going to wear it all the time, but you have to be very analytical inthis business if you want to growand scale and know what you have. And so this early on for me issomething that I had challenged him. Luckily for me, I didn’t reallyhave a choice because I was in asituation where I had to make it work. And then I partnered with my businesspartners was super analytical and so mylike artistry and then his analyticalgave us a sort of this perfect storm so we could continue to rep. Okay, thanks. And now I have obviously an amazingbaseline and systems in place, but um,yeah, it’s interesting to hear you saythat, cause I, I definitely know where people, you know, lose their energyand I know it usually that gives themenergy and people love creating stuff. You know, to have an app thatyou can literally like from yourbrain and you get in the store. I mean, that is the mostunbelievable feeling. And uh, you know, it’s justincredible to, to be, I’d be like, now I’meven more like excited about this storebecause I see how, how much my energetic and how do all these other companies anddigital products versus physical products. And, and I’m just like,there’s nothing else like this. There’s nothing else like it. And especially now with like. The budget’s out there and the datathat we’re getting and you know,Facebook working for you, liketo be able to really scale that. You know, there’s a bunch of companieslike you, you probably know I, and we’llprobably talk about this a little bit inour next call from selling a business, but man, they’re going around juststrategically picking off, uh, companiesthat they know are not doing ads. There’s so many Indies that have apps inthe store that aren’t leveraging at all. But the big guys know. And so see, they see theseopportunities cause to createsomething is an opportunity. Costs, right? Something that you’re buyingthat’s existing, it’s easierto tweak something times. And so, you know, I’ve been really beenfollowing their model and also seeingthese sort of second tier apps that youcan really scale or the people are just leaving it. And I think there’s so much in theapp store right now and, uh, you know,if anybody gets anything from thison me, it’s like get excited because. This is well, at times I’ve,I’ve re sort of dedicated myselfto, uh, on a whole nother level. And, um, you know, I’mjust really excited. I’m excited that we get to connect and,and kind of, you know, geek out aboutit because it is such a fun space. And, I think there’s just somuch room for creation and growthand really adding value to people. Yeah.So true. And I had a friend who bought anapp, it was like a second tier, builtit up, and now he’s like totallytransformed at like 10 X revenues. And he’s just not now, likepotentially seeking investors andlike really growing this thing. And it was just a simple ideaand few tweaks, like you said. Onboarding experience can of reallyanalyzing what the user wants. So tweaking that onboarding experience,teaching them a little quick little videos the app, and now boom, it’s really taken about how to really get the best out of off. I think when you were doingthis and this, you just wantedto really show off your guns. Right? I think that’s what it was. Yeah. I know. I’m actually, I’m a, I’m not a Talon,but I talk like an Italian, so I’m alwaysusing my commands and weird sounds. So part of the show, it’spart of the free experience. I love it, man. Well, I don’t know. I don’t have anything else to cover. I thought this was a great first session. Again, we need to get diggingdeep on the second session. Maybe hopefully do thisevery month, every week. Whatever. We can do it. Let’s keep doing it. Yeah.